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- RGT - 07-15-2023
Picture this: You pour your heart and soul into creating a game, assembling a kick-ass team that's ready to bring your vision to life. You work tirelessly to make it perfect, feeling damn proud of yourself. But then, reality hits hard. Your game is out there, but no one's playing it. What the actual fuck? It's so easy for people to say, "Oh, it's a dying game," or "People only want this or that." These are the repetitive lines when it comes to discussing LC. But is it fair to put all the blame on a neglected game? Let's cut the bullshit and get real about what's going on.
Marketing Woes
Let's rewind to that proud moment when we release our server to the public. Do we really expect players to magically find it on their own? Sure, we make some noise on social media and post a few YouTube videos, targeting the obvious LC niche markets. But who are we really attracting? Players who already know about LC! Are we content with that? Hell no! Recent servers have failed to advertise effectively, leaving a massive untapped player base. How the fuck do we expect players to join if we don't let them know we've got something new to offer? Marketing, people, marketing!
Neglecting Newbies
Another crucial aspect is the lack of consideration for new players. Recent servers hardly give a shit about welcoming and guiding newcomers into the game. The LC story remains untouched, the storyline uninteresting, and the overall balance is a fucking mess. I'm not here to trash recent servers, but let's face it, they aren't built to last. That's a fact, no sugarcoating it.
Don't Play the "Old Game" Card
Okay, LC may be ancient, no denying that. But don't give me that bullshit excuse that no one wants to play it because it's old. Last year, I did a study with students aged 13-18 in Norway, and guess what? 85% of them said they'd play or at least give a game like LC a shot. Plenty of people want to play this kind of game!
Lost and Confused
Let me share a personal experience. I've introduced my two younger brothers to several servers over the past two years, and they struggle with the same thing over and over. They have no fucking clue where to go or what to do in the game. We need to make LC more accessible for newbies, provide better guidance, and make it an immersive experience that hooks them from the start.
Embracing Change and Innovation
In my opinion, to revitalize the LC community, we must embrace change and innovation. Sticking to the same old formula won't cut it anymore. Private server owners need to push boundaries, introduce unique features, and evolve the gameplay experience. Whether it's incorporating new mechanics, expanding the world, or enhancing graphics, let's show the community that LC can still surprise and captivate players.
Fostering a Welcoming and Inclusive Environment
Creating a thriving community requires fostering a welcoming and inclusive environment. We need to eradicate toxic behavior, elitism, and cliques that deter new players from joining. Encouraging positive interactions, supporting newcomers, and valuing diverse perspectives will help build a stronger and more united LC community.
Alright, folks, it's time to spark a real discussion about the sorry state of LC private servers. Why the hell aren't we actively trying to attract new players? Why is the LC community so hell-bent on letting it fade into oblivion?
These are my personal opinions and experiences, and yeah, I may be dropping some "facts" along the way, but keep in mind, they're my perspective of how things are. This post is all about encouraging a no-holds-barred, lively discussion. So, let's keep it civil and bring some fresh ideas to the table!
I’m really curious to see what people think about the matter! ? I do hope people don't take this personally, it's not my intent to step on anyones toes.
- Sickness - 07-15-2023
I've talked with you personally extensively about why my views differ entirely from yours on these matters but I'll do my best to give my opinion.
For context I have played LC since 2007. I played Original EP1 Aeria Games before the evasion changes where you could legitimately dodge every monster in the game and be effectively PVE immortal. When you were in your level 30s for weeks. Back when the game was drastically different that no one can repeat now due to that being lost to time, even in old code the community has. I have seen the game through every large change, as a player and as a private server developer.
Marketing Woes
This is just something that simply isn't realistic from any standpoint. Official LC players have known about private servers for over a decade. Many of them will never try it simply because of the fact that no private server lasts long. There has been only a couple notable exceptions, yet they are still lost to time as we discuss this. You want to advertise to new players who've never touched LC? Even if you ignore the problem that the license holder of LC (Which seems to still be Gamigo) can shut you down at any point, LC isn't exactly a game that has the chops to appeal above every other game out there. It never has been. It's a relic of a past when the market was flooded with Korean Grind Fests. Those died out as the WoW model took hold and korean grind mmos are nearly gone except old ones like LC. No one wants to play it and the p2w korean grind historically appeals poorly to Western audiences and that's a statistical fact to the point where any Korean game that gets a Western port is nearly completely changed monetization wise when compared to the West. All of this to say is, the focus needs to be on current or past LC players. Chasing new people is a crazy idea no server or official has ever had a chance of doing well.
Neglecting Newbies
LC has never been balanced or newbie friendly. It is a Korean P2W Grindfest. It is that at its roots, it is a game propped up by cash items being the norm. Quests and story has always been filler as it is in every grind p2w korean MMO. You can dress it up however you want but this is the core of LC's balance. It's all unbalanced and always has been. It's unbalanced on purpose and appeals to whales shitting on f2p players. It would take a lot to change this and make it better, but at what cost? You can't throw out the opinions of the current player base to chase a non-existent one. That's how things die as shown a lot in today's climate. Organizations, games, and even events try to appeal to broader audiences while alienating their core user/playerbase and find themselves not being appealing to the people they expected would come. It's an insane risk. It's even more insane when you realize you are dealing with BARELY triple digit player numbers. You flat out cannot risk losing the current playerbase or you are on a dead server. Do you know what kills a MMO more than anything else? Low player numbers.
Don't Play the "Old Game" Card
I can't really respond to this as I don't know what you showed/told them or how that may have skewed their responses but LC is an old ancient game, yes. It's unappealing to the average MMO player in todays world. That's just a simple fact you cannot ignore. The games market is over-saturated with dozens of huge live service games fighting for everyones attention and you think a korean p2w grind mmo from 2005 built on a DX8 Serious Sam Engine is going to charm its way into taking F2P players from Lost Ark? FFXIV? WoW? RuneScape? Valorant? League? etc. That's not reality you are living in if you believe that. Maybe in your idealized version of LC that just...isn't obtainable at least not from the community. Maybe a team exists out there that could update the engine and more, but at that point you're making a new game and its no longer LC to the current players.
Embracing Change and Innovation
Private server owners have done their best however at the end of the day you are working on a illegitimate version of the game. So you aren't attracting professional developers who could bring great change and groundbreaking features. No one is looking to attach their real name to copyrighted code they legally should not have access to. The pool of developers that LC has had in its entirety of private servers has never been experienced enough to change the game at the levels you think it should be. Also, as I said above, you can't alienate the current players. The current servers that come out are a product of what the community wants. Does every server do it perfectly? No. Does every server do its best to appeal to every player at least at the start? Yes. Why wouldn't they, even if they were doing it for easy money. You are just looking for talent that just isn't here and never has been. If it has or does exists, it has never been exerted in a meaningful way so that must say something.
Fostering a Welcoming and Inclusive Environment
You're unfortunately asking too much here. At the end of the day, the current people making servers are exactly as I said above, a product of the community. The LC community is toxic, extremely so. It's filled with racism, homophobia and more. It's not a positive community. I cannot speak for the official players, but the private server community is this way, which means a lot of the developers and server creators are too. That's not to say everyone is this way, obviously this forum wouldnt exist nor would its answers if that was the case. But you kind of have the best you're gonna get is my point. We all have limits to our patience, and unfortunately it often gets tested by someone typing through a poor google translate asking questions that make no sense. Where the only solution is connecting to their PC to do it for them. It's just not that encouraging to help people who need their hand held that much. I have helped many people over the years, but I want people who will I can lead to an answer, not one that needs a step by step teamview connection. This is how I was taught, I asked lots of dumb questions, but I eventually got to where I knew a decent amount. Good resources exist here for people who know how to access them.
That's my personal perspective of someone who has been here from the beginning.
If you want LC to be a better game, you're eggs should be in the Fawkes basket. Private servers aren't saving LC.
- Revenge - 07-15-2023
Uff
- Veni - 07-15-2023
Like you said yourself, let's get real here.
Marketing Woes/Neglecting Newbies/Don't play the "Old Game" Card/Lost and Confused
This reality is that you will barely be able to attract new players to this game. I don't know how you sold these guys to Last Chaos, but you probably sugarcoated it by a lot to get them interested.
You can't market LC like it's your own game that you made from scratch, LC Private Servers are by default illegal and this fact didn't change over these last years. How do you expect this game to be marketed? Saying it's the best of the best technology? That would of course be a lie and not the truth. Great community? Not really. A lot of players? Nope. The Server has been running for a while and will be running for a while? 99% of the times that's a no too.
There isn't a thing for you to advertise and actually hook people with except for that this game has a very "loyal" community to the game itself, but not for any specific server. The closest thing to a loyal community for a specific server would have been GN02 by wizatek. But even wizateks server wasn't newbie friendly, even for people experienced with the game. It was a very customized Server, to such a extend that it actually hurt the server because people would have never even bothered playing it.
Attracting new players to the game is very hard and making them stick to game is even more, no kind of marketing will land you that many people if they actually know the reality of Private Servers, the Community, the Game etc.
Embracing Change and Innovation
This won't work because of two reasons.
The community:
The community is very firm about what they want a server to look like and what it should do and shouldn't do. If you stray too far you simply won't be able to get any players at all. One good example of this would be "Ash Last Chaos". They actually did some new stuff with the game, for example you had more of a "skill tree" instead of just learning all the skills and so forth. They made some changes that no one else tried before them. Did it work? nope. Why? It was too much for the community and barely anyone gave a damn about it. They had a relatively big teamn from what I remember but their server still failed in the end. Making it even more customized wouldn't have helped them out either because that's just how this community is.
The developers/teams behind the server:
The amount of people that can actually develop a Last Chaos Private Server is already very slim. If you now only count the people that actually know what they are doing, except for all the wannabe devs like Joker and such, then you barely have a handful of people that can create something. To create whatever you are dreaming of you need actual professionals that can improve the game and it's flaws but you won't find these people making anything like that with the game.
Why? It's simply not worth it. This all goes back to this all being not legal at all and the community being as small as it is for private servers. I myself am a software developer that learned the basics because of this game and actually made developing stuff my profession. Back when I started I also always thought "oh man if I could do my own Servers they'd be so great and I'd put in so much work!" but the realtity is that there is not a single reason to make a private server for people like me that are as innovative as you want them to be. This isn't something you can put on your portfolio properly, but something you want to hide from the world.
The money you'd recieve is also not life changing, especially if you have a team that you are sharing the income with. Doing it for the sake of creating a server that the community likes is of course a reason for some, but your soul will be crushed as soon as the first people finished most things to do on your server. By then you essentially have to work full time on this illegal thing you created and need to neglect everything else, otherwise your server will be empty when the 15th Server by Joker arrives next week.
Finding a team that can actually cover all of this and actually make sense of it all is basically impossible. This game isn't large enough to attract people like that anymore either, you'd have to look at other games like Metin2 for this. There you'd find skilled enough people that actually are risking their livelihood for a illegal private servers.
Also, barely anyone in LC is "pouring their heart" into a server. A bunch of people just create a server, change a few things here and there and call it quits. Server opens, they get like 10k from it and then it's rinse and repeat. Why innovate when you can literally just do this and have a "infinite money glitch"? You won't find that many pure hearted people in this "development community" as you might think. People just buy a few system from people like RomeoST, Russian, Gustavo and then buy maps from people like Revenge or Sickness. Put them into the game, change some stuff and add a few items and that's most servers these days.
Fostering a Welcoming and Inclusive Environment[/b]
I don't know how you want to even accomplish that if even multi-million companies can't do this lol. Take for example League of Legends. It's one of the most toxic communities in gaming and even riot can't do much about it. Sure, you can get banned for saying some bs, but this won't change anything. You can get muted, it won't change anything.
In LC you also can't just get rid of "cliques". What you are essentially doing with this is removing 1/4 of your server if you remove just a single "clique".
I tried my best not to say stuff that /index.php?/profile/394-sickness/&do=hovercard" data-mentionid="394" href="/index.php?/profile/394-sickness/" rel="">@Sicknessalready mentioned here, but this is just the reality of the game. Your "ideal" private server is a fantasy that you can only dream about but not achieve. You won't be seeing these things on private servers, what you want is not feasible because of all stuff we just said and there is probably still so much we haven't covered yet. All of these things are just facts that you can't change in this environment.
- RGT - 07-15-2023
Really great perspectives here, and I definitly understand and agree with the majority of it. I realized when making the post that a lot of my points were a stretch, but I figured it would be worth sparking some conversation over anyways ? Me and /index.php?/profile/394-sickness/&do=hovercard" data-mentionid="394" href="/index.php?/profile/394-sickness/" rel="">@Sickness have had a lot of these talks through the last couple years so it's nice to see other people jumping on it as well.
To clear up the study I did with the students, I asked them 5 very simple questions about MMO's and Last Chaos, without any priming beforehand except they got to see a trailer. The questions were were:
1. Do you enjoy MMO's?
2. Do you think an old game like Last Chaos could survive today?
3. What are you looking for in a MMO
4. If you have a look at videos of Last Chaos online, how likely are you to start playing?
5. Would you want to see a new server for this game, and would you play it?
The students had options to answer freely in text on question 3, and the rest were multiple choice questions.
Now, this may come as a surprise to many, as it did for me... but people actually want to play a slower pace game these days. People today are jumping in and out of games on battle royales, league og legends and a lot of these "adrenaline" based games, and they get exhausted. So to sit down with some braindead slow paced mmo is a nice change that a lot of people like from time to time.
And to respond to the legal issues, there are ways around it. It's a shitty and less-than-moral way around it but it's there. If you hide behind the right laws, there would have to be some really powerful people in play to make a dent in the server, and if executed correctly, they might not even get the chance to take it down.
There is no way around what you both say about the game not being popular anymore and stuff. The community is mostly shit, yes. And the game is struggling to compare both visually and mechanically. But I think we can all agree that one of LC's strenghts is it's simplicity? It's not an overly complicated game where you have to spend weeks to learn basic mechanics of the game. You can more or less jump straight into the game and enjoy it from the second you step foot in Juno.
In my opinion, it's quite ignorant to say that you can't market the game. Legal issues set aside, you could absolutely market the game! In fact, you can market virtually anything you want, and you will reach an audience. I had been producing music for a small label for a decade, then in 2020 I decided to pursuit my own artist project. After just 2 years I had amassed over 500.000 streams on Spotify alone, been featured in a bunch of music magazines, blogs, radios. Got my music played by a member of the Wu Tang Clan, had crazy artist features with multi platinum selling artists and a lot of incredible things. And I accomplished all of this independently, through good marketing strategies. I had no prior community, no contacts, no nothing. Now my daytime job is to produce music for 3 big labels in Europe, and again, all thanks to me reaching my audience. So yeah there is definitly a place in the world for LC, people just doesnt know it yet.
It would take a lot of work, and you couldn't have done it with the sole intent of making money off of it. You would need a solid team of people who could be trusted, and it would take time. But it would absolutely be doable. LC was good when Aeria had it, the servers were thriving, people everywhere. The problem now is that private servers try to compensate the lack of people with new systems and shit. It's not sustainable. The only way to truly sustain a server these days is to build a player mass, and not the same 60 people that the community has now, but new players. For that to happen, there would need to be a server that actually translates to new people, which also have been lacking.
But yeah that's my take on it at least. I hope you at least can try and see things from a new perspective. I realize that's hard when you've been in the thick of it for so long, but I really don't think we should accept that it's as black and white as you make it to be ?✌️
- nicolasg - 07-15-2023
The idea of generating mass players is simply absurd, you idealized LC based on your past memories. The reality is very different...
Neglecting Newbies/Fostering a Welcoming and Inclusive Environment
I like to see things as a possible Player, with a critical and personal mentality (I think most people think so): LC is a product with nothing around it, there is no Guide to indicate what to do or how continue with the Progress throughout LC, To that I have to add the fact of playing on a Private Server, where there are some new things that nobody explains how to use or why they are there, besides that it generally does not fit with the style of a mmorpg. So it's definitely not friendly (I played at BilaGames (LC's official distributor in Latin America and Brazil), they had on their page a more or less complete guide on how to play LC, regardless of the fact that LC is a Korean game, the guide was useful).
Embracing change and Innovation
As previously mentioned in this thread, it's not what you want to do, it's what you do at first and then what the players demand. Unfortunately, the few remaining LC Private Server players have been accustomed to garbage over time. Quick level up, no Skill Points needed, etc etc, With these demands it is difficult to propose a story line to follow. Time to mention the elephant in the room, there is NO new content, let's be honest, not even Gamigo added any new content, what can we expect from small groups without the capital of a "Big" company like Gamigo? For years the "story" of LC has been stagnant, there is no really new content, new story line/s there is no new map in which to continue progressing (I do not mean necessarily level up) there are no new Weapons / Armors, there are no new Mobs (I am not referring to stealing assets from other games as some propose... I am referring to content made from scratch, Once again we return to the point of monetization and the fact that we are working on something completely illegal). I think from a potential Player's point of view, there is no reason to continue playing LC.
Maybe many think that I am an idiot because of my way of thinking, but it is my honest thought.
- RGT - 07-15-2023
Nobody thinks you are an idiot, and honest thoughts are what we want /index.php?/profile/14423-nicolasg/&do=hovercard" data-mentionid="14423" href="/index.php?/profile/14423-nicolasg/" rel="">@nicolasg! ? I absolutely get your drift, LC as a game has gotten stale with time. And it's not easy to pinpoint why. Although I would like to point out that there are definitely potential to make some new content to LC. A storyline could be made by using the existing story of LC (which actually is pretty alright, it's just very underdeveloped) and build off of that. A creative soul could easily make something cool and captivating to enchant people that like to dive into a good story arc.
And yeah I think there were some guides online from Aeria as well, which was very helpful whether you were drop farming, questing etc... But a good and user friendly game will help you understand its core mechanics and gameplay by guiding the players through in game achievments. This could also be done in LC, and I don't mean those hals assed quests in the introduction where you learn to use health potions haha.
Generating mass players might sound absurd, but not impossible. At the very least, I'm pretty confident you could reach a point where you could have a game with a sustainable playerbase. I might have a underlaying guilty pleasure in LC, but that doesnt mean that other people can't enjoy the game? I don't understand where you would get this from? The reality as of now is very different, yes, but that doesn't mean that you can't get new or old people to play a game. Every single new game starts from 0, LC actually has an existing fan base, and that will definitly help from a marketing standpoint.
That's what I don't get with everyone I talk to about this. Everyone is caught up in how things have been and how things are, that they can't see the potential of what could be. And I'm not saying its easy, not saying it will happen over night.... but there is potential, and denying that is crazy to me
- AphelionLC - 07-15-2023
I'd like to share some thoughts on this.
The comment about LC community being discriminative (a.k.a Homophobic, racist etc) is completely true. I am hated by several developers that btw, I have never even spoken to, and I guess you can figure out the reason why. So before we go slamming players, LC devs are to blame for this too.
It's also no help to the LC community as Veni quite clearly and correctly mentioned, when "developers" release 5-10 servers per year as a money grab. Unfortunately the hype of a new server will never prevent LC players from playing it, even with the foreshadowing of the fate of that server. But that is unfair to those people who literally give their life to this game. I quit my real job in order to make my perfect server and bring a server that people could love, and I will never regret that.
I disagree with a lot of points here, yes lets face it, at the end of the day we are producing an illegitimate video game, but when we think of the morality of it, is it really that bad? I've hosted a few servers before, but let me give my examples in my current server now, the feedback, messages and community-ship that the players show me is unfathomable, yes don't get me wrong, a lot of players are extremely toxic, and I will get to that soon, however, the messages that I have received from certain players on my server is enough to make anyone with a decent heart feel good about them selves,
I have players who see me a friend, and they do in-fact tell me their life-stories and things they are going through, and I'm told again and again how grateful they are for my server to give them some escapism from the horrible things happening in their lives. Similar to any other game, we all use gaming and other recreational activities in order to provide some escapism on how shit life can be. So to those players, we do not include them in the toxicity of the overall community.
I have been in LC scene for 4-5 years now and I have dealt with some pretty disgusting people but there is a very very large amount of players here who are indeed wonderful people, I've made some fantastic friends who start out as players, whether they come into my staff team or whether I just chat to them outside the LC scene, as a friend.
Server owners who dedicate their entire lives to make a server, as I proudly would say that I do, for example I can spent somewhat up to 16 hours a day working and helping people to give them the best experience I can are simply discouraged by the problematic ideology of a perfect server, regardless of how many patches, fixes, new content, new fun things, players will still moan and still cry about other problems. Being a LC private server owner you cannot win, and indeed, it is lovely to receive nice messages after bringing a huge update, but the majority of people quite frankly don't give a shit, they are just playing where their friends are. As mentioned before, you cannot break cliques in LC because it removes a substantial amount of your player base.
I don't want to talk too much about financial side because I think that's private, but saying that its not life changing money is in-fact wrong, if you can keep a server active for over a year, as I have done, you gather a very loyal donator base, and I think many developers struggle to do this because they cannot communicate to their community, I have players who donate, not because they need items or cash (in-fact they are totally full in every sense) but do it because they want to support me and keep the server alive, and this I think is the fundamental basics in running a successful LC server, building and communicating with your community is what makes you successful, as much as people may come for me for things I've said here, however, I don't really care what other people have to say about me personally, I don't care for developer drama, or drama between other servers as rivals, I care about my own server and my players and my staff team nothing more. I'm happy to say thank you to the world of LC because it helped me pay of all my debt, stopped me becoming homeless and perhaps even bankrupt, and I owe that to Last Chaos Player donator base.
In contrast, I completely agree with the problematic toxicity environmental behaviour as I know many people who leave my own server because of this clique toxicity, guild rivalry etc. Players expect you to ban everyone who does simple things such as swearing, and this is not a solution as the more people you ban, the more players you loose, in an already small community, and this becomes problematic to server owners. It's a shame that a lot of people also like to brown-nose hackers and dupers, this is the main problem in LC in my opinion, little boys who get their hands on new tools and can speed hack is what is destroying this community also, you can fix it sure, and you can change source code, prevent this, prevent that, but something new will come, as it always has done.
In my opinion I don't think that big companies should come and shut down all private servers, as we are what keep the game alive, they don't want to play P2W corporate companies, and therefore, if private servers shut, I think LC would loose up to 70% of its community, and then we really would be dead as a community.
I think to have a solid view and opinion on this you need someone who actually has experience in withholding a private server that has substantial longevity. Not developers who can open a server for 3-4 weeks and shut it down because they die, what is the point in this? This only harms the LC community more.
Doing this for 4-5 years I notice trends, summer is extremely quiet in all servers, because people don't wanna sit in 30 degree weather sweating their [CeNsOrEd] off playing LC. Christmas time is the busiest as everyone has vacations and wants to play. Did anyone notice how busy LC got in lockdown? Some servers had 700+ people, we should take all this into account too. People are bored of servers opening every week with no though-process on the future of the game, and I'm told this weekly by many of my own community.
In my own experience, we cannot bring people who have never played LC into a private server, developers including myself, yes I know. We create alot, at the demand of players wanting these things, I build 50% of my content from player feedback and suggestions, I do what the majority want to keep them happy, sadly this does mean constant evolution of the game, including new maps, yes, and new content. No new player who doesn't understand Last Chaos could ever begin to understand it all, I think this is a very far-stretched idea and its just not practical in the private server scene, private server population is directly correlated to playing the original game. In 5 years I have never seen a single brand new LC player never played before. However, It is important to mention people do come back to us very often, its a never ending cycle. People quit, people join, its as simple as that.
One player messaged me last week that he came back to LC after 10 years, and was willing to learn everything all over again, so who knows to be honest.
I think to keep it fair, there is no particular desire (at least speaking for myself) to publicly advertise everywhere possible, it just simply wont draw new people in. The fact you mentioned about your streams, I'm sorry but this has nothing to do with it, the difference of people who play MMORPG and people who listen to music cannot be correlated to LC private servers in any way. In my opinion.
I have faith for the future of LC, I think we can continue to develop good servers, but I personally wish servers who make all these amazing and wonderful new things, actually just don't give up... and close after 2 weeks, its simply not fair to the LC community, but players do indeed have a role to play on here, "quit culture" is an awful thing in LC private servers, if one "main" player is banned from a guild, 50 people leave, and follow. That is discouraging to people like me who spend almost all their time trying to develop a good server that people can enjoy.
I agree making a new episode or say to speak and producing a new story line to continue the values of the land of iris would be extremely exciting, but lets face it, how many people play campaign modes on multiplayer games? Would players even read, or care? Who knows, but maybe its worth a shot.
I'm not coming at anyone in this message but I wanted to share my thoughts based on my experience of having 2 private servers that have lasted 2 years and my current one 13 months. I will not give up on the LC community and I will continue working and making the best possible server I can, and although yes maybe I may buy features from other developers, but why would I not share my income back into the LC scene, doesn't that make sense? If no LC dev doesn't get paid, then why would they stick around making all these fantastic features? Surely that's a better practicability than just keeping all the money for myself? I've made some fantastic friends from working with LC devs and indeed why not buy things that people create and share it with the community, I never did LC for the money, that's why my servers you can literally farm everything and cash is free, but I'm not going to lie and say, this is my job and how I pay my rent, so a fair division between p2w and f2p is necessary for a successful LCPS. This is further consolidated by the player feedback I get from my donators, they want some p2w items, and why not? They are the ones who fund this community and keep servers alive, so it is important and extremely fundamental to keep them within the community.
Thanks for reading if you manage to get through it, but I think LC private servers are amazing and it keeps the community alive, and reminds me of playing Aeria LC as a kid, at 12-13 year olds, but as I said, people will always come back, they always have and they always will, its a never ending cycle.
Thanks
Goofy
- RGT - 07-15-2023
Awesome insight /index.php?/profile/21873-aphelionlc/&do=hovercard" data-mentionid="21873" href="/index.php?/profile/21873-aphelionlc/" rel="">@AphelionLC! I'm curious, why is it that you don't think active marketing won't draw anyone in? The streams was just an example of how you can get a word out there to a lot of people, which is what you would want to do if you were to market a game. It was in no way meant to be a correlation to LC.
I also would like to ask you about this one "In my own experience, we cannot bring people who have never played LC into a private server, developers including myself, yes I know. We create alot, at the demand of players wanting these things, I build 50% of my content from player feedback and suggestions, I do what the majority want to keep them happy, sadly this does mean constant evolution of the game, including new maps, yes, and new content. No new player who doesn't understand Last Chaos could ever begin to understand it all, I think this is a very far-stretched idea and its just not practical in the private server scene, private server population is directly correlated to playing the original game. In 5 years I have never seen a single brand new LC player never played before. However, It is important to mention people do come back to us very often, its a never ending cycle. People quit, people join, its as simple as that."
- Why is it that you don't feel you can bring new players in on a private server? I get your point with the new systems and everything but the core game could be enjoyed by anyone, no? And even with new systems, there surely could be ways to implement them in a way so they become natural for players to use them? Lets say in a side story quest line, or in a dungeon? You must agree that by making the server unplayable for new players, you eliminate a substantial potential playerpool. What if I want to bring 2 of my friends in on the game, they have no prior experience in LC.... they would quit in a day because I cant be there to hold their hand all the time. That's 2 potential players gone. And that's a real life example as well, and I can't be the only one
Anyways, I love what you do man, and it's really nice to hear that you've managed to find your spot in the LC scene!
- Sickness - 07-15-2023
I agree with mostly everything /index.php?/profile/21873-aphelionlc/&do=hovercard" data-mentionid="21873" href="/index.php?/profile/21873-aphelionlc/" rel="">@AphelionLC said here and I will respond to your questions from my perspective as well.
I understand that there are ways to get around legal battles when it comes to hosting your server, you can play cat and mouse. However you can't do that when you have your real name attached to it when they can directly come to you yourself. I'm not sure what lawyer you have talked to that has convinced you this is not a concern but you are sadly mistaken. Copyright laws are very strict and we have seen countless examples of why. If you were to ever realize your dream of creating successful marketing to the point where it overshadowed official LC, you would be painting a giant target on your back with neon lights. They would quite frankly have no choice but to pursue you legally to defend their copyright. You would be leaving them no choice. And guess who gives no shits about your cat and mouse games when it comes to shutting down your content at the drop of a DMCA notice? Google, Facebook, Twitch, etc. all the methods that you would use to advertise would drop your content immediately upon a letter from the copyright holder and you cannot change that no matter who your lawyer is.
Ignoring all the legal ramifications, I really just have to ask you how into the MMO scene are you? Do you follow it regularly? Are you familiar with what is popular right now? LC is clunky, old and decrepit when it comes to comparing it to anything nearly modern. It is built on a 2004 Serious Sam engine with minimal work done to improve it at its core. If you are to strip it down it would LC be fun for a new player? The answer is .... no. 100% cast is nearly demanded by players and they are used to it. It removes any balance and absolutely drains any fun out of the game when you're just holding F1 to spam your skill. This is also true when it comes to core LC items like HP/MP stealers which quite literally do not nor would they every exist in another MMO because they are also balance nightmares. But I can imagine the enraged community if you ever took them out. There's several examples of just simple things in LC that go against a balanced game approach. The game was milked dry for years by the developers and priority was always put on the next P2W mechanic and after so long, it shows.
No server has ever been balanced enough to hold any actual mainstream appeal just because it's impossible. You can be "balanced" for LC, but LC itself will never be a balanced game without stripping it of its entire identity with the current playerbase, which is suicide and exactly why I say your appeal to new players would be at the cost of your current ones. It just...doesn't work sadly.
I could continue more and more, also revamping the story sounds cool and all but its quite literally a waste of time, resources and effort. Today's MMO player just clicks through story text. Unless you want to also bloat the game and budget with voice acting (this is a joke) then no one is ever going to pay attention or care about your story. Most players click through WoW's story and only watch the cutscenes. No one is going to read a Last Chaos quest about why you're going to Egeha.
Can someone make a really good LC private server? Potentially. However I really need to stress on the points that /index.php?/profile/21873-aphelionlc/&do=hovercard" data-mentionid="21873" href="/index.php?/profile/21873-aphelionlc/" rel="">@AphelionLC made regarding how the players are. I have now been a part of 4-5 servers now since starting as a GM in 2009. I have dealt with players for years, I know players who I banned from Eternia 8 years ago who now make their own servers. The population is the same, it just keeps getting smaller. New blood doesn't really happen so you have to focus on who you have now. However the current player base just does not lend itself well to a server. It expects an unhealthy life style.
What /index.php?/profile/20534-veni/&do=hovercard" data-mentionid="20534" href="/index.php?/profile/20534-veni/" rel="">@Venisaid about it not being life changing money is more applied towards big staff teams that would be needed to fulfill the requirements of a big server. If you are sharing your money with 2-3 people, sure the amount is decent but you have to really question yourself after a certain point. I have been there working 16-18 hour days like you /index.php?/profile/21873-aphelionlc/&do=hovercard" data-mentionid="21873" href="/index.php?/profile/21873-aphelionlc/" rel="">@AphelionLC and I have done it for over a decade now. I have received substantial and life changing amounts of money from LC. It has paid for my school, it has paid for rent, it has paid for a car, it has paid for so many things in my life. However the work was backbreaking(mentally) and rarely rewarding in the end besides the money. All things come to an end, and sadly LC servers do so fast. While AphelionLC may be successful in outlasting a majority of servers now, it does have an end date most likely as everyone else has. And its very likely that that ending will be entirely unfair and due to something stupid from the LC community.
You see, the current playerbase simply does not care that you were up for 16 hours fixing an error report, they wanted new content yesterday. You didn't ban their enemy who is totally hacking because they got killed by them. You never do enough. LC is a game where you are actively harmed by trying to keep your server fair and banning bad actors. The game is made up of cliques, cliques of large sizes that will and do leave at the drop of a hat. If you lose even one of them for any perceived sleight against them, your server can very very quickly start unraveling.
I'm ranting a bit now, but my point of this all is this: The current community does not reward your hard work and dedication besides monetarily. I have watched years of my work fall apart due to an idiot who bought cheat programs and got banned. I have watched my multiple 12-14 hour work days go to waste on servers because a new server has opened to catch player attention. My story in this is not unique, this has happened to many private server owners. So when people question why some of them don't do "enough" I just laugh, because why would I want to spend another 18 hour day when the players are like this.
LC as it is just isn't sustainable for a healthy work/life balance, and if you made it that way you would need enough staff members that the money would no longer be a rewarding aspect of it. Which is often the only thing you are left with when Joker's 20th edition server releases and players go join it.